Is Ripping Netflix Movies Illegal?

I've been asked this question a number of times, most recently by Heather Anne:

I know it cannot be legal to copy rented DVD's but I cannot find any clear cut info on this on the internet. Can you point me in the right direction? I know a lady who makes copies of close to 30-40 movies a month rented through Netflix and Blockbuster and she claims this is legal because she pays 18 bucks a month per service and she isn't selling them so it is fair use. Can you let me know what the deal on this issue is?

I recommend that you start with the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, which makes it a crime to break the encryption on most DVD's, and Copyright.gov, where you can learn more about the copyright law.

Netflix states the following in the terms of use: "Netflix does not promote, foster or condone the copying of DVDs or any other infringing activity."

While the movie studios and the MPAA haven't sued anyone for copying movies they rent from Netflix or Blockbuster (yet), they have started to sue people illegally downloading movies. They have also forged an alliance with the popular BitTorrent program, used by many to illegally download movies, to remove copyrighted material from the BitTorrent directory.

You might have noticed this warning, shown at the beginning of many movies:

Note the line that states: "Criminal copyright infringment including infringement without monetary gain, is investigated by the FBI and is punishable by up to 5 years in federal prison and a fine of $250,000."

Comments

[hall]

In the vast majority of cases with DVDs, "fair use" is trumped by the DMCA. As most people know, DVDs are usually encrypted. In order to copy them, you must break the encryption scheme, which is illegal per the DMCA. THIS APPLIES TO MOVIES THAT YOU OWN TOO !! There are some DVDs, retail ones, that are not encrypted. If you were to buy a copy of that and back it up, I believe that this falls under "fair use" provisions and no court in the US would find you guilty.

In the case of rented DVDs, none of the above applies. Simply put, THEY ARE NOT YOUR DVDs TO COPY. Paying a monthly fee doesn't change this.

What pisses me off is that while staying legal, I have to sit through many minutes (okay, I exaggerate but it's damn irrittating) of useless warnings and ads that I can't skip. And when will the menu-makers get that although the animation is cute the first time, it gets in the way later on!

Outside of some program being installed on your computer that reports online when you copy something I don't see how you can be caught. I think they are more concerned with the downloading and selling since that is actually what is costing them money (so they claim).

[guest]

I don't have a choice but to rip them. MCE refuses to play DVD's on a HDTV in 1080i mode, because of the stupid Macrovision protection. So I rip them, rip the useless stuff out of it, watch the movie, and delete them (I do buy the DVD if I like the movie) since they are rentals.

Leaving aside (for the moment) DMCA concerns, since the disks do not belong to you, you are not entitled to the usual "backup copy" provisions of the copyright laws that apply to digital media.

If it was your own DVD (and if the DMCA did not apply), then you could make a copy for your own use - such as when parents make a copy of The Incredibles for their kids and keep the original safely put away. But not when it comes to copying rentals.

"I cannot find any clear cut info"

I'm not sure how someone could be confused about whether its illegal to copy rented movies.

Wow! Heather Anne, your friend is a moron. I'm always surprised by the never ending ways people try to justify their theft.

"Fair Use" is a term that gets spouted by these kind of idiots a lot, but has no basis in reality whatsoever.

[jacob harvey]

Well the DMCA is a piece of crap.

I would never fault someone making a back-up copy of a movie they own. But the friend is blatently breaking the law.

You can not make copies of movies you rent. They are owned by Netflix/Blockbuster, not you. I know people who copy friends movies. But copying 40 a month being rented, that's a bit extreme.

I'd be less surprised if the friend was ripping them onto a computer. Who the heck wants to store 1000 movies in their living room, even without the cases?

[The Damned Ghost Of Tookie]

Who cares? I copy the ones I want (copying everything like your "friend" seems extreme), and couldn't give a damn what the DMCA says. I don't justify it, and don't care what anyone thinks. If you don't like that, blow me.

[spimby]

I think the DCMA makes it illegal to copy a DVD you own too. Because to copy it means you have to circumvent the anti-piracy encryption schemes, which is made illegal under this act. This will no doubt be challenged when the case is right. However, it does bring up the point that since you never truely own a DVD anymore, why would you bother doing anything other than rent it?

[plantronics cs55]

If you pay for the DVD, why would it be illegal to make your own backup copy? Same with softwares you buy, you can backup your own software CD's (in case your dog chews on it or something)

[Heather Anne]

Oh she isn't a friend, she is actually a lady who unsubscribed me and banned me from a list when I pointed out her little habits were illegal in front of the entire group. After she banned me, she continued to email me with really rude comments like calling me an a**hole and telling me to go to h*ll. It only irritates me because people always complain about Netflix staggering movies, and it is people like her for certain who cause Netflix to do this. I know people take part in this, but to brag about it in front of her email list and then to react all violent after being called on it, mean she must KNOW it's illegal but continues to tell me I know absolutely nothing, and she is right. I have sent her to this post to show her that it is in fact, not legal.

[John Snape]

Actually, "fair use" is a term the Supreme Court used when they decided the Sony case back in the 1970s. They said, since the signals coming through the air are free to everyone, recording the signal for later watching was considered "fair use."

It doesn't directly apply to DVDs, but the "backup for personal use" nature of the ruling does apply. If I purchase a DVD, I own the media it is recorded on. I don't own a license to reproduce the movie in another medium and sell it to others (or even give it away) as that reduces the value in the market for the legitimate rights-holder. I can, if I can find the right tools, make a backup for my own use, without much fear the government will be knocking down my door, even if those tools are currently illegal.

As to Netflix or Blockbuster: no, you don't own the DVDs you are trying to copy, so it is illegal to copy them, even for your own use. I don't think anyone will come knocking on your door looking for your "pirated" copies of Netflix movies, but you never know what will happen, as many people doing illegal things have been caught from seemingly innocuous happenstance.

As someone who actually makes DVDs for sale, I see both sides, as both a consumer and producer. If you had any idea of the rampant "piracy" going on within the entertainment industry itself, I think you'd actually be shocked.

[Jordan]

I copy them sometimes, only if its a movie ive had for a long time, dont have time to watch it and want to send it back, or a movie i really enjoy

Let's put it this way. Nobody has been sued, successfully, for copying rentals or movies they actually own. Unless you make the dumb mistake of returning a copy in your Netflix envelope, it's unlikely they'll know. Or if you get 8 DVDs and return all the same day.

"If you pay for the DVD, why would it be illegal to make your own backup copy? Same with softwares you buy, you can backup your own software CD's (in case your dog chews on it or something)"

Because, unfortunately, the DMCA does not cover ownership. IF you have to bypass digital protection, than that is illegal. It does not matter if you own it - as far as DMCA & protection concern go.

But, I can remember in the early computing days when every piece of software would tell you first to "back this software up and use the backups to install this software". "Place the origianls in a safe place". Now if you try to do that, you are a criminal!

"What pisses me off is that while staying legal, I have to sit through many minutes of useless warnings and ads that I can't skip."

That's why I rip all of my DVDs and process them with PGC Edit and/or VobBlanker and/or DVD Shrink. Often I just re-author the disc with the main movie. No need for any boring extras and other irritations.

"And when will the menu-makers get that although the animation is cute the first time, it gets in the way later on!"

I refuse to put up with that. All of my DVDs go straight to the movie or main menu right after being inserted in the player. I remove any animated menu transitions and other crap that just wastes time. I'm sick and tired of Hollywood crapping all over me with annoying DVDs that waste 5 minutes of my life every time I want to play them. And since they go around treating me like a thief with stupid copyright warnings, I migth as well pirate.

[lorell]

Read the clause in the
Constitution
regarding copywrite and patent and then tell me I should respect the tons of laws congress has passed for these movie and recording companies. They are only interested in lining their own pockets.

Has anyone ever thought how unfair it is to copy DVDs from Netflix for so cheap, when those of us who rent a movie and like it, go out and buy the DVD? Is your friend really that cheap they he/she won't pay for a movie he/she really likes?

Maybe the studios make too much money, but everyone has to make a living somehow. I make mine by working on the DRM that you tards are trying to get around. Get over it already.

[Death to DRM]

You DRM sell-outs deserve to die. Fuck-asses.

[RevRagnarok]

OK, let's ignore DMCA for a moment (my opinion: you have archival rights on your owned media, end of story). What nobody has mentioned yet - what is the legality of time shifting? That's how TiVo/ReplayTV are legal. Fairly convoluted example:

1. I rent DVD from Netflix.
2. I am leaving town this weekend, want to watch the movie with the host of the party I'm going to.

Legally speaking, can I copy the movie to a DVDRW, mail back the original, watch the 'RW with the friend, and then erase it?

A less crazy example:

I know that my Christmas break is coming up, so I want to pre-queue a few DVDs from Netflix without upping my membership ('cuz I'm a lucky bastard who has the 4/$20 plan). I'm time shifting them, I'll delete when done.

"Legally speaking, can I copy the movie to a DVDRW, mail back the original, watch the 'RW with the friend, and then erase it?"

Why not take the original disc with you and send it back after watching it? That's not a really good example. A better example is, I rented a movie from Netflix but I don't want to watch it right now. I want to return it back and get another movie. I want to watch it eventually, but it's a waste of time and resources to rent it again. In that case, I would argue that copying it to hard drive or DVD +RW/-RW would be the ideal solution.

"I know that my Christmas break is coming up, so I want to pre-queue a few DVDs from Netflix without upping my membership... I'm time shifting them, I'll delete when done."

Netflix would say you're abusing the system, because you're sending back DVDs faster than you could feasibly watch them. If you wanted to have more out at a time, just sign up for a higher plan. The DMCA shills will tell you that you're still in the wrong. I say, screw them. If I rented the DVD, I have the right to watch it whenever I want. That includes the right to burn a copy, to protect against hard drive failure. It's my business if I choose to delete or destroy the copy after I get around to watching the movie.

Piracy probably wouldn't be such an issue in the first place if buying a movie didn't cost 20 dollars...come on, three hours of my paycheck going into one movie? I don't think so! Easiest way to lower prices: stop paying actors 20 MILLION DOLLARS for one freaking movie! Drop the prices of the movies, and I'll buy em when they come out. Otherwise, I'll just wait to pick em up used somewhere, and then Hollywood doesn't get any money from me anyway. They're screwing themselves out of business.

[Ghost of Big Johnny]

If you didnt't sell and just ripped, you must acquit.

[hall]

"If I rented the DVD, I have the right to watch it whenever I want."

Netflix (or BB or others) don't have an issue of you watching it "whenever you want" to. That's why they don't charge you a late fee for keeping it as long as you want 'til you watch it...

As for those "warnings" and previews on DVDs, check your DVD's setup menu for something like "Auto play". My $79 Toshiba has it. What it does it automatically play the *largest* file on the DVD. Previews or extras will NEVER be the largest. It might pick a full-screen vs widescreen version of a movie in some cases though.

[The Damned Ghost Of Tookie]

"Has anyone ever thought how unfair it is to copy DVDs from Netflix for so cheap, when those of us who rent a movie and like it, go out and buy the DVD?"
That's your problem, chump! Kiss my ass.

[Rusty Ramrod]

Ripping/Copying commercial DVD’s is against the law. The scourge of the earth DMCA sees to that without question. As much as I hate that stupid ass law, one would have to be asinine to argue about it. Sure we all friggin hate it, but even my dog knows you can’t legally copy a commercial DVD.

That said, I have to believe there are a lot of “collectors” out there. I define a “collector” as someone who, for all intents and purposes *will not* buy a DVD.

That being said, over the course of a year a true “collector” would spend exactly zero dollars on DVD purchases. Potential income to the studios from sales to this guy is zero.

Now, this same fella feels good about renting DVD’s because he feels that to be a fair deal. At the same time he enjoys just having the copies he has made of the rentals, although for the most part, they do nothing except sit in a cake box, collecting dust, only to see the light of day when his buds come over to check his “collection”

And this is where it gets me fired up personally, if the guy has 1,000 DVD’s in his “collection” yet he would have “zero” if he had to buy them then the studios are out exactly zero dollars but they do get money from the guy renting the DVD in a roundabout way.

It is the same as the guy who has D/L’ed 5,000 MP3's.

99.999999% of the “collectors” who have done that would not have purchased 5,000 CD’s worth of music as the RIAA would have you believe and try to prosecute on.

In the end, the answer to Heather questions are cut and dried:

1) It is absolutely NOT legal. Ripping a commercial DVD requires the use of a tool to defeat copy protection which is 100% illegal.

2) Her not selling them also no longer makes any difference since they added the “infringement without monetary gain” line.

3) It is not “fair use” since she does not “own” (read license) the DVD and even if she had purchased the DVD the DMCA still makes it illegal to make a backup.

In the end, if she keeps them to herself the chances of her getting into trouble are probably zero, however from a legal standpoint she is stealing.

Now if she burns off 10 copies for her friends then the odds go up that she could get caught since each disc she burnt would be tagged by her DVD burner.

[PlungeBob]

Rusty:

"each disc she burnt would be tagged by her DVD burner"

Is this like how laser printers invisibly tag documents they print?

why is it legal to make an "audio" cassette tape copy of a LP you own, and give that "copy" cassette to a friend... but not "movies" ? it's still "sharing" copyrighted material. -- it's because there's a TAX added to all "cassette" sales, which goes to the RIAA. now, if DVDRs were TAXED, and a % went to the MPAA, it'd be a whole different ball game.
there isn't an extra built-in TAX on CDRs (for MP3 burning or direct audio copying) which is why the RIAA is pissed off. if sales of DVDRs were taxed on a PER-DISC basis, it might lift the law, but there's no way we're going to buy DVDRs for $5.00 just so the MPAA can get $4.60 from each DVDR sold... (there's no way the computer industry would even let such a thing happen anyway) so, it's all about shafting US, the people that make these assh*les RICH!

[sorry, it's 5AM, i haven't slept yet, my thoughts are scattered and rambling. hope it made sense]

[hall]

"why is it legal to make an "audio" cassette tape copy of a LP you own, and give that "copy" cassette to a friend... but not "movies" ?"

Okay, you said you posted at 5am ... did you by chance read the complete text of the story or any of the comments ?? Copying a commercial DVD requires (2) steps, the first being breaking the encryption protection. That part is a violation of the DMCA.

No one is saying, "long live DRM!". But, the DMCA is the law. Until it is changed or modified, it is illegal to copy DVDs - no matter who owns them, if they have protection.

As far as time-shifting with Tivos, etc.; they do not break the protection. You can time-shift with netflix as well. Instead of watching a disc on Monday, watch it on Tuesday - that's time-shifting. Per the DMCA you cannot copy it to disc and watch it later somewhere else.

We all need to keep prodding the polititians to rewrite, modify or null parts of the DMCA to allow for "personal use" of DVDs.

[Zach]

I feel bad for the guy above that actually works at creating DRM schemes, given the historical ineffectiveness of every one to date.

"check your DVD's setup menu for something like "Auto play". My $79 Toshiba has it. What it does it automatically play the *largest* file on the DVD."

What it does is play the longest running PGC (Program Chain). That's not good for movies with widescreen/fullscreen or TV series that have episode of varying length. Daewoo units also have this feature, but it's not on most machines. It probably violates the DMCA, to skip content that's made to be un-skippable.

"Has anyone ever thought how unfair it is to copy DVDs from Netflix for so cheap, when those of us who rent a movie and like it, go out and buy the DVD?"

Uh, no, because I wouldn't have bought DVDs any way at the price they are being sold. I only buy movies that I can't rent, or if the price comes down to like $5 or $6. Most DVDs I want aren't even available to buy locally. If they refuse to sell in my local store, I won't go out of my way to get it online.

If they don't like copying, they should open a new store with every DVD ever made for $5 or less. Some of my favorite movies are out of print, like "Double Indemnity", "Last Days of Disco", and "Zentropa." I never got to see them on DVD, because I didn't have a player when they first came out... Now they can't be found without paying absurd prices, like $100 a piece. I'm not going to pay for something low on my list of priorities while the studios refuse to give me the DVDs that I really want, like "Some Girls", "Cafe Society", "Many Loves of Dobie Gillis" TV show, "Reflecting Skin", "Ricky Jay and His 52 Assistants", etc. I'm saving my money to get the things I really care about.

"the DMCA is the law. Until it is changed or modified, it is illegal to copy DVDs - no matter who owns them, if they have protection."

Being illegal doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't do something. Civil disobedience is clearly justified in this case. We have the right to decide NOT to watch a Netflix rental at this time, but rather to send it back and get another instead. It makes sense, if we're doing that, to make a copy of the disc to save postage and time down the line. Only a brain-dead follower would send the disc back and queue it up again, rather than ripping a copy and (possibly) burning it. Even dual layer DVDs are cheap now - under $2 for Verbatim +R DL on sale.

[Amused]

--- Being illegal doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't do something. Civil disobedience is clearly justified in this case. ---

"Civil disobedience"? If you're serious about this claim, post your name and address. MLK and Rosa Parks didn't hide in their homes to change the law, they weren't afraid of getting arrested and prosecuted.

[hall]

"We have the right to decide NOT to watch a Netflix rental at this time, but rather to send it back and get another instead."

Let's pretend you also have a membership to a local video-rental store. Do you go there, rent a DVD, take it home, NOT watch it, and then return it ??

"If you're serious about this claim, post your name and address. MLK and Rosa Parks didn't hide in their homes to change the law, they weren't afraid of getting arrested and prosecuted."

We're not stupid. People break the traffic laws all the time. They don't send notes to the police with their license plate and ID. Silly laws (like against drugs or drinking under age or copying movies) do nothing but erode public respect for law and order. Get off your high horse with the Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks bullshit. Read Thoreau, who talked about Civil Disobedience before they were even born. Fuck-wit.

"Let's pretend you also have a membership to a local video-rental store. Do you go there, rent a DVD, take it home, NOT watch it, and then return it ??"

Often I rent a DVD, take it home, and decide not to watch it or to watch it later and get something else. I have a subscription at the video store for unlimited rentals, and also online. Half the movies I rent, I never see or do anything with. I delete them or don't even bother to rip them in the first place. What, exactly, is your point? It's none of your business WHAT I do in the privacy of my home. If I want to rent 20 movies a day from Blockbuster and return them all without even watching (or copying them), that's nobody's business but mine.

You & the previous fuck-ass should read the book "Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do."

[CJ]

Laughable thread... We live in land of lawyers and too many laws. I defy anyone to say he/she doesn't break a dozen laws every day just by going about their daily business of living. And I would hope law enforcement is more interested in enforcing real laws that can endanger your life, like driving while holding a cell phone, than some person renting and time-shifting DVDs.

I contend a law is not really a law you need to follow if law enforcement chooses not to enforce it - which seems to be the case here in copying and time-shifting DVDs.

I think intent has much to do with it.

If you're copying movies just to build your collection at a cheap-o price of $20 a month then you're clearly stealing (which is breaking the law on any level and not something everyone does everyday like speeding or whatever) it's a crime that takes from other people - and not just the highly paid actors. Stop and count the names in the credits sometime. All of those people must be paid as well in adition to many you never think of.

If you're making a back-up copy of something you own, no one is going to care.

It never ceases to amaze me the inventive ways people try to justify theft (and it is theft - you acquired something without paying for it, sorry).

The price is too high? Friggin' wah! The price of a new mercedes is too high for me, but I don't just go to the lot and drive one away and return it when I'm done.

Imagine how PO'd you'd be if your employer took your services without paying you for them.

In the long run that's what you're doing - except to the couple of hundred people who make a living making movies.

"Who cares? I copy the ones I want and couldn't give a damn what the DMCA says. I don't justify it, and don't care what anyone thinks. If you don't like that, blow me."

And there, my firends, is the mentality of these people.

Social outcasts with no regard for others and little for themselves.

You know, the kind of people that lead miserable lives and obituaries that get read by no one as they never did a productive thing with their lives.

Yup, the kind of people that actually make you side with things like the DMCA and wish the line, "enforced with a heavy, blunt object" would be added to the law.

But hey, what do I know? I tend to respect others and their work. Go figure.